The HFL Education Business Services Podcast - When Staff Resist Change; what can school leaders do?

Change is a constant in school, but not all change is created equal. While curriculum developments are often embraced, changes to systems, processes, and back-office functions can prove far more challenging.

In this episode, Catherine Loake, Director of Business Services at HFL Education, is joined by HR expert Hena Mahmood to explore why change can feel so difficult in school settings, and what leaders can do to make it more successful.

Drawing on extensive experience supporting schools and trusts, Hena highlights the human side of change, how change effects culture and the importance of communication.

Successful change is not just about having the right strategy, but about taking people with you, creating a shared purpose, communicating clearly, and investing time in listening and support. 

With realities of modern headship, how can leaders navigate change when there is resistance?

Bite-sized listening for headteachers, CEOs, school business leaders and governors, the series helps leaders step back from day-to-day pressures, reflect on the bigger picture, and explore practical ways to lead their organisations sustainably and strategically.

Host: Catherine Loake (Director of Business Services)

Guest: Hena Mahmood  (Service Development Lead)

Created by: Rachel Lodge, Paul Hayward, Biljana Miljkovic

Questions? Email podcast@hfleducation.org.

HFL Education (formally Herts for Learning)  is a not-for-profit organisation providing all the services, training and resources needed to deliver a great education to every child.  

Transcript

Catherine: Hello and welcome to the HFL Education Business Services podcast. I'm Catherine Loake, the director of Business Services at HFL education. We wanted to bring you this series of mini podcasts because we recognise that the role of headship is growing ever wider ever deeper, and finding that time to unpack and get under the bonnet of issues away from the classroom can be really, really tricky. So that's where we come in. I'm really pleased that Hena Mahmood has joined me today. Hena you're one of our star HR Managers in HFL and spend a lot of time talking to schools settings and trusts, So we're going to ask today, why is change so challenging in schools? And I'm going to start with a bit of a, I guess a dark secret. I've thought this for a long time, but I don't voice it very often because it's a bit of an uncomfortable truth, and I worry about alienating, school community when I say this. But one of the things I've observed across many years working with schools, settings and trusts, is that some elements of change in the school come really easily, so change around the curriculum. Schools are absolutely brilliant and they nail it every single time. And I kind of stand on the sidelines and think, wow, that is stunning. Yet other types of change can be really difficult back office change, for example, changing an MIS system can be an absolute nightmare and can cause chaos. Is that something that that you see 

Hena: Yeah, we see it often. I think on your point regarding the curriculum changes, I suppose with classroom that pedagogy is always changing. class teachers are more versed in that change and being, approachable to that change process. Whereas the back office, they almost kind of get on with things and sometimes they're not as visible as the class teaching. And their roles don't directly impact the pupils. So there's that less visibility there. Often they have fewer resources, and their work goes un-noticed sometimes, but actually they're really crucial in the running of the school. and they just get on with things quietly and that change doesn't always come easily for them because they've always just done it like that. So often we hear leaders that will call through and ask for advice is that the school business manager's been there for a very long time, that's their role. They've had to learn and develop. Also, the CPD side teachers are really versed in going out to networking events. They go out to headteacher groups, all sorts of things, whereas some of the back office staff won't get access to that. So they're almost working on their own in isolation. And I think a lot of the work we sometimes do with BMS briefings really helps that because they get out and the questions we get really help that. So I don't think it's resistance to change. I think it's more around the fact that they have always just got on with things and not having the CPD, whereas teachers have that, they have different cohorts of children. They have to change their style, their leadership, the curriculum to meet those needs.

Catherine: That's really interesting actually, because I guess, the thing I always come back to is culture eats strategy for breakfast. And I know I've literally banged my head against a wall in HFL before now, when I'm trying to bring in a big piece of change and the culture just doesn't enable it, people are able to sort of to hide away and resist change quietly. What is it that does make people resist change Hena? 

Hena: I think it comes down to the conditions that you create as well as leaders. it's not that resistance to change. I think it's about how you bring people along with you. For me, I've always been a big believer in that shared purpose, and communication is so important. So if you're introducing a new change, but you haven't involved your team or you've got the voice of, you know, whoever it's affecting, you feel like it's being done to them rather than it's being done with them. So I've always been passionate about if you've got something that you want to work on or it's a new process, a new system, for example, talk to the people that are going to be using them, finance and HR. And, you know, the role that I worked in previously, we brought in a whole new MIS system, but it was led by the finance team. And actually there were key functions within the teams that needed input in that, and they didn't do that. So we ended up having to ditch that system and buy a whole new system. Time, energy, the cost of all of that versus had we all sat around in a room and you don't need everybody sat in a room, but, you know, the key people to kind of have those conversations around how will it impact my role? Is there any other considerations before you go in and change that system? I'm a big believer in take people with you and also if there isn't an update, don't let that gap sit there, you know, try and make sure you're letting people know by the way, this is happening but we've now come to a pause because we have to do X, Y, and Z. I’m really passionate about you take people with you. 

Catherine: I think one of the things I've learned about change management in my role, so that I'm not banging my head up against the wall, is sometimes it does take a village as well, because actually, taking that time to communicate with people is time consuming. And if you are working at pace for a particular reason, if you've got a deadline, for example, and things have to change, sometimes bringing, an HR partner in or somebody else from the school community that can invest that time in people is helpful as well. And I think as leaders sometimes, we take it all on ourselves because we want to be the face of a project or a program. it's important that the change is communicated by us, but it can literally take a village sometimes can’t it. 

Hena: Completely, I was talking to our teacher yesterday and we were working through some of the, concerns that she's got, some of the things that she needs to implement. And my advice was to her to slow down, don't rush it, I know you need to get this done, but actually by taking time to step back and just look at what you've got to deal with and sometimes some of the things you've already done, you know, take that as a win, but just step back and take time to think and then go forward with whatever it is. And also just making sure you've got the expertise that you need, I said to the head yesterday, you've come as a head teacher and now you're dealing with these people challenges. That's what we're here for. So come and speak to us and we'll work through it. And at the end of the conversation said, I'm really, really pleased we've had this conversation because I was feeling quite isolated and not really knowing which way to go. So I'm like, just pick up the phone and speak to us. 

Catherine: And I started off talking about how sometimes in schools change around the classroom can be easier than change around the back office. And maybe there's something in that Hena that school leaders come from a teaching and learning background, so they understand it. They're really comfortable with it. So actually, again, talking to classroom practitioners about how and why things need to change comes a second nature. What sometimes can be really tricky is to work with the back office staff, because they can bamboozle you. When I've had this with my technology team in HFL they’re trying to bring a big change program in and I've been told why something can't work but it's in technical speak that I don't understand. And actually, what I found in the end was that bringing in somebody from the outside that did understand that and could kind of give me those barriers so that I could break them down was really helpful. When you come across somebody, you know, a naysayer, when you try to change something that is bamboozling you with technical language, what can you do to overcome those barriers? Otherwise we end up with this kind of Achilles heel, don't we, you know, organisation that we just can't bring change about to you because it's so difficult and you can't break down that area you don't really understand and have that detailed knowledge of. 

Hena: So I'll go back to what I said earlier it’s the why, people need to understand why you're bringing in the change. And often when we've spoken to schools, settings and trusts where leaders get that, where they're bamboozled by it is because most of the time from my experience, is because that individual isn't really aware of what's happening or it's a confidence thing and fear, you know, the fear of change is just massive. And sometimes, especially with the back office team, Some of them may have been in that role for 20 odd years, and that's how they've always done it. And suddenly you're bringing in a new MIS system I suppose it comes down to how you've...the culture within the school, if you've got an open door and you're able to have that honest conversation and say, well, actually I don't know how to deal with this. I need some help. Often when you're bamboozled with things, it's because of that fear of not knowing what's on the horizon, what's going to happen to their role. budgets are tight the fear of their role may not be secure. You know, it might mean a new system coming in means that they don't need that role anymore. but I always come back to the purpose, the why, sharing, why it's happening, asking those key questions. You know, tell me what what's going on in your day job? What do you see that might be the impact of this new system or whatever it may be. 

Catherine: So sometimes it's about putting yourself into other people's shoes and kind of I suppose thinking about, ok, what are the broader implications? Because I think you're right. That fear very often is, am I going to have a job? I'm not going to be made redundant. And obviously we're in this, era in schools where anything we can cut, any roles we can lose, that's what we're having to do because budget pressures are so tight. And I guess it's that conversation with someone about actually, this is going to free up your time so you can invest it over here because this is where I really need you to be concentrating. So I suppose again, it comes back to time doesn't it. And taking that that time, stepping back and thinking about how can I, incentivise this person to come along on this journey because actually there's something in it for them and it isn't just a scary change program where they're going to lose their job at the end of the day. 

Hena: Yeah. And you can overcome those barriers because it's, how you implement that change it’s a change management process. And actually, you know, if you're able to have those conversations, you’re able to say, look, we're going to invest in you. whether it's job shadowing or whatever it may be, because we are in a different world now where money is tight, but it's just being able to have those conversations and taking that person with you. 

Catherine: In other podcasts in this series, we've talked about the importance of bravery around what's happening in the school and being prepared to do things in a very different way. And I guess change management is a key skill in that. 

Hena: Absolutely. And I think you will get some people that won't come with you because they it's not that they can't, it's just they won't. And that's where accountability will come in. It's down to your leadership. It's down to your culture. It's everything that you want to put in terms of investment. And having those really honest conversations as well. 

Catherine: And I'm very mindful the head teachers often come into headship from being excellent teachers in a classroom, and suddenly they find themselves in this new role where they're expected to lead and manage all elements of a business effectively when they haven't had that, training, you know, there's lots of these skills you learn over years. I mean, you're an HR professional Hena, this is your bread and butter. you know, if we put you into another environment and said, right, suddenly run the IT system, run the finance system, that's really quite, quite challenging. So how can heads build these skills for the reality of modern headship? 

Hena: We have this often, you know, I think with leaders I had a lady the other day that said to me, I've not been in a classroom, I've not been able to go out and do things because I've been dealing with people challenges. And that's not what I trained in. You know, it's ok to be vulnerable sometimes and saying, look, I don't have those skills. And that's where we come in and we can help that. You know, my previous roles, I was a business partner. I'm a really passionate about business partnering because we can work with you, you know, those skills sit with us, but we can also coach and enable you to have those conversations. The head teacher I was speaking to yesterday, you know, she's got a very difficult situation that she's trying to deal with that she's trying to deal with in the school I've never had to deal with this. know, I can deal with children and their behaviours, but adults and their behaviours you know, it's a tricky world and there's lots of external pressures on people. Making sure you've got the right skills. If it's something that's tricky and you've got a very complicated disciplinary process, a grievance process, I always say speak to somebody about it, don't leave it because it's not going to go away. And if you've got a HR person in the school, great. If not, you know, speak to us and we'll walk you through it. I always say, look, come on, let's walk through this process. What have you done? What haven't you done? What do we need to do now? And the head said it nice when I said we. It's where we're working with you. Yeah. It's not that you're on your own. And for her to say at the end of it, oh actually, I don't feel as isolated now. I've got somebody that I can talk through this without, having a fear of not knowing, you know, often people look to me for the answers and I don't have all the answers, and that's ok. 

Catherine: So having the right partner by your side is, is really, really key. And actually when you were just saying, a head saying they're spending a majority of their time on people. I guess when you think about it logically, schools are spending 80 to 90% of their budgets now on people, they are your greatest asset, you're in a people business. 

Hena: Yeah. 

Catherine: So it's inevitable that the majority of your day is going to be taken up. 

Hena: Absolutely. Yeah. And that's it. that investment in your team, your people, the time you have with them having that open door policy that anybody can come in and have that conversation with you builds that culture of trust and everybody pulling together in the same direction, which ultimately has the impact on the children in the school. 

Catherine: Yeah. And I think, you know, there are days when I come into the HFL office and I leave thinking all I've done is talk to people today to listen to their concerns, to reassure them, to coach them. I actually haven't got any work done. But I take a step back and think, no, that's my job. That's my job to lead people, you know, layers of leadership. I need my heads of service to be delivering great services, managing their people effectively. It's not wasted time investing time in people. Yes, there's kind of reports to write and, data to be mined and all of those great things. But actually almost your biggest priority has to be having those conversations and making your people really feel that you're invested in them and that you care as well. There's so much there isn't there.

Hena: Absolutely. And that's the values, isn't that you believe in if your leaders have that time for you and they genuinely care about you, you get that return back from your team. you want that sense of belonging somewhere. When you look at the research, despite the world that we live in currently pays quite low down. It's about belonging somewhere, how you're treated. I was talking to some other heads the other day, and they were saying that the ECT’s are coming in with all these demands, and that's a generational shift. I don't know, Catherine, but from my experience in my past roles, I've probably gone, ok, that's fine. I don't I won't question why I'll just crack on and get on with it. Whereas we've seen from our experience the ECT’s are coming in and going, actually know what's in it for me. What are you going to give me? What are the conditions that I'm working in? What are the benefits for me? And if they don't like it, they'll easily be out the door. And that's something that we, you know, talking to leaders about that retention piece is so important. And you keep your really good people. But then you've got the flip side that you do have to have those difficult conversations and accountability comes in then as well. 

Catherine: So I guess I'm hearing sort of three things from you, Hena. First of all, change starts with people. And that that vision, that rationale and really kind of mapping out why it matters, but also checking in at every step of the change process to make sure you're still taking people with you. Because getting that culture right is really, really important. The second thing is partnership. And, you know, you don't have to do this by yourself if you find the right HR partner because people are complicated and, heads cannot know everything about, you know, people management, they learn it as they go. But actually being able to lean on a, HR business partner is really important. So again, you know, being able draw on great partnership is important and finally that willingness to change yourself, it's a two way process. And I think sometimes that reflection at the end of a project or a program or you know, an era and thinking, right, ok, how am I going to have to adapt my practice moving forward, and I guess particularly as we have Gen Z coming into the workplace, it's really important that we as leaders remain agile and adaptable. 

Hena: I agree and it is hard. You know, I think if you've been a leader in a school for a long time and you've got very young, ECT’s coming in it, it is being adaptable but also embracing it. my young daughter often says things to me and I'm like, wow, I never, ever thought of it like that. And actually it's about listening and taking those views on board and then thinking about, actually, could I do something differently? 

Catherine: Ok so Hena final question as we wrap up. I think we've all been there haven't we. Where you've tried to initiate change several times and you have that one person that no matter what you do, no matter how much time you invest in them, won't come with you, what do you do then? 

Hena: And that's always difficult. Providing we've done everything, you know, you've made that investment, you've created the conditions, you've had those conversations. There does come a time when enough is enough. And actually it's not because they can't do it...they're not...they just won't do it. And that comes down to accountability. And then you have to have that difficult conversation. We often get calls like that and we talk through that with the leader. And it's, talk to your business partner, talk about what else can be done. And there are options. whether it's a conduct issue, resistance to change or it's a really difficult conversation around this isn't working out for us now, and actually, we need to look at an exit. My advice would always be to leaders come and speak to us. We will walk through that with you. It's a difficult one. But providing you've done everything possible to make it easy for that individual or a group of people, it's almost like the last resort. 

Catherine: And sometimes I think that's kinder to the broader school population, isn't it? Because culture will eat strategy for breakfast. And one of my favourite sayings, I don't take it lightly, but is if you can't change the people, change the people. Because sometimes actually, you know, if you've got someone who is so resistant to change when that change is made because that person might decide about this, this isn't for me, and they choose to move on. It's so refreshing when you're not held back by that constant, you know, tension of the change and actually you can just get on and and do things. So sometimes that can be really, really difficult. But it can be the right outcome for the school. 

Hena: Absolutely, if you're trying as you've just said Catherine there, you've got this whatever it is what initiative it is, a new system, whatever it may be. And that one person's holding that back, that can also have a detrimental impact on the culture, that can also be a massive energy drain on you as an individual, but also the team and all the work that you've then spent time creating as a team, it will go wasted and I think that's when, you know, actually this is time that we need to talk about another option, another route. And that's fine. It's ok. It happens. It's ok when you've done everything and it's just not working out. 

Catherine: In summary, there are, I guess, four things that that we need to remember then, the first is that, you know, heads aren't alone. There are, some fantastic business partners out there that can help coach people through people issues. Secondly, it's really important to invest time in, change. And no matter how great the plan is, you've got for system change and actually taking people with you is crucial. You need to put at least as much time into the people change as you do into the kind of physical change you're trying to deliver. The third is, as a leader, you need to be prepared to change because tue environment never stays the same. And we all need to be kind of adapting our practice and changing our mindsets. And finally, I think most importantly, there is a point where enough is enough and, and bravery is really key there that leaders don't have to put up with this stubborn resistance to change. If you've done all you can do, that's the time to pick up the phone to an HR adviser and to solve the problem in a different way. 

Hena: We're here to help and support you. We know the processes. We know the systems. And it's just having that conversation. 

Catherine: Well, Hena, thank you for your time, your excellent insights. That's been really, really interesting. I hope you found the podcast interesting as well. If you did, please don't forget to like and subscribe. If you've got any questions for Hena or I just pop them in the chat and we would be delighted to answer them. See you next time!